92 e250 5.8 where is the pcm power relay
#11
06-08-2014, 03:51 PM
I will try to stay close by if you get a chance to keep us informed with your progress.
It is always a pleasure to work with someone that is willing to do what needs to be done in order to get the problem solved. It has been a while since I worked on those years and models, but they were tough, always gave good service and were not really that bad to work on. There are KOEO (key on engine off) and KOER (key on engine running) tests that can be done with an inexpensive tool and the nice part is the computer will run the dynamic tests automatically once you prepare the system to do it. It gave you the codes and you were able to go from there. It was one of Fords good ideas.
It is always a pleasure to work with someone that is willing to do what needs to be done in order to get the problem solved. It has been a while since I worked on those years and models, but they were tough, always gave good service and were not really that bad to work on. There are KOEO (key on engine off) and KOER (key on engine running) tests that can be done with an inexpensive tool and the nice part is the computer will run the dynamic tests automatically once you prepare the system to do it. It gave you the codes and you were able to go from there. It was one of Fords good ideas.
#12
06-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Hello
I have spent over an hour writing a response to your excellent instructions. Only thing it erased. I will re-write tomorrow ASAP.
I'am getting intermittent voltage readings at the EEC relay when is it moved around. Right now the van will not start. I'am getting good fuel pressure and volume. There is no spark with a HEI tester. I will start tomorrow morning testing the no spark. I will repost as soon as can with the results.
Aloha
Jim
I have spent over an hour writing a response to your excellent instructions. Only thing it erased. I will re-write tomorrow ASAP.
I'am getting intermittent voltage readings at the EEC relay when is it moved around. Right now the van will not start. I'am getting good fuel pressure and volume. There is no spark with a HEI tester. I will start tomorrow morning testing the no spark. I will repost as soon as can with the results.
Aloha
Jim
#13
06-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Aloha Everyone
I want you to know I appreciate all the help. I typed on my I Phone for over an hour, both yesterday and this morning, both times I accidentally swiped the phone and like it disappeared? Here goes again. I'am going to use a chronology of events:
Have had van six months. From beginning it seemed like it was mode and a lot black gas rich smoke. Only now have I found the map sensor. The first I have done is send the computer out for remanufacture. It was showing 11 and was putting random useless codes. Before putting back in I followed their instructions, looked and found an bad egr solinoid, replaced it. I then cleaned all connections with the proper cleaner. Right now the computer puts out code 11, but, the first code seems to be a 7? I forgot to explain that the engine starting several months would not restart after warmed up for several hours. This is why I sent the computer out. This did not help the problem. It would seem to stay in limp mode withe black smoke. At the time, I was getting mixed readings for fuel and spark. Yesterday, I found when I wiggled the EEC relay the readings at pin 86 ( pos. for coil) I get a volttage reading of either 3 or 12 volts. With the key off I get .9mv at pin 86 fuel pump relay. The EEC readings are ok. Also found a blown 30 amp fuse number 7 under the dash fuse box. I see it feeds pin 86 of EEC relay, possible cause of blown fuse? Right now the engine will not start. The relays are showing correct voltage. I'am getting good fuel pressure and volume. Their no spark at the coil wire using a HEI. Their is 12 volts at the coil. What may have have been an issue, was sold a black instead of gray tfi or ICM module. I put in the black same time as computer rebuild. I have since replaced it with gray one, no help. I have the Chilton's manual, but, I think their spec's for testing the module have been misprinted. At this point it seems I should start here with voltage checks. Thank God or the internet. I don't think I left anything out. Any suggestions!
Aloha
J
I want you to know I appreciate all the help. I typed on my I Phone for over an hour, both yesterday and this morning, both times I accidentally swiped the phone and like it disappeared? Here goes again. I'am going to use a chronology of events:
Have had van six months. From beginning it seemed like it was mode and a lot black gas rich smoke. Only now have I found the map sensor. The first I have done is send the computer out for remanufacture. It was showing 11 and was putting random useless codes. Before putting back in I followed their instructions, looked and found an bad egr solinoid, replaced it. I then cleaned all connections with the proper cleaner. Right now the computer puts out code 11, but, the first code seems to be a 7? I forgot to explain that the engine starting several months would not restart after warmed up for several hours. This is why I sent the computer out. This did not help the problem. It would seem to stay in limp mode withe black smoke. At the time, I was getting mixed readings for fuel and spark. Yesterday, I found when I wiggled the EEC relay the readings at pin 86 ( pos. for coil) I get a volttage reading of either 3 or 12 volts. With the key off I get .9mv at pin 86 fuel pump relay. The EEC readings are ok. Also found a blown 30 amp fuse number 7 under the dash fuse box. I see it feeds pin 86 of EEC relay, possible cause of blown fuse? Right now the engine will not start. The relays are showing correct voltage. I'am getting good fuel pressure and volume. Their no spark at the coil wire using a HEI. Their is 12 volts at the coil. What may have have been an issue, was sold a black instead of gray tfi or ICM module. I put in the black same time as computer rebuild. I have since replaced it with gray one, no help. I have the Chilton's manual, but, I think their spec's for testing the module have been misprinted. At this point it seems I should start here with voltage checks. Thank God or the internet. I don't think I left anything out. Any suggestions!
Aloha
J
#14
06-09-2014, 03:22 PM
I made some omissions on my last post. I left out that engine was in LIMP mode from the beginning. Also should have typed, ... When I wiggled the EEC relay, I showed 3, 12 volts and .9 mv at pin 86 of FUEL PUMP relay.
Aloha
Jim
Aloha
Jim
#15
06-09-2014, 07:07 PM
This is what I would do.
First pull off the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator. If it has any gasoline in it , it is defective and is pulling extra gas into the intake and does cause a rich mixture and black smoke from the exhaust. If no gas in the vacuum line , put it back on and move to the next check. By the way a code 11 tells us two things , the system uses a two digit code system and code 11 means that test passes.
Now , lets find out what is really happening. Take a jumper wire from the battery positive post and connect it to the terminal of the EEC relay that comes from the ign switch. You should hear the relay energize and also hear and feel the fuel pump relay energize when you provide a ground for the fuel pump relay coil.The ECM provides the ground for the fuel pump relay for 2 seconds when you first turn the key on. When you ground the ground terminal of the fuel pump relay coil you should hear the fuel pump run in the tank. All we are doing is providing direct paths for power and by passing the wiring to those relays.
If the computer gets no RPM signal from the dist the fuel relay will not say energized and spark will be absent. There is a pick-up coil in the dist that sends a signal to the ECM and that signal goes to the ign module which then controls the ground to the coil. The coil has a power terminal that gets its power from the EEC relay and the other coil terminal gets grounded when spark is to be produced. If you have 12 volts to the coil with the key on all that is needed now is the ground for the other side of the coil winding to induce the spark in the secondary winding of the coil. If you remove the coil wire from the center of the dist cap and place it 1/4 in away from a good ground you should get a spark out of that coil when you momentarily touch the terminal of the coil that would normally get a ground to create the spark. Boy, I hope I put this clearly enough that you can follow what I suggested. Sometimes a test light is better to use than a voltmeter because it puts more of a load on the connections and wiring than a voltmeter.
First pull off the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator. If it has any gasoline in it , it is defective and is pulling extra gas into the intake and does cause a rich mixture and black smoke from the exhaust. If no gas in the vacuum line , put it back on and move to the next check. By the way a code 11 tells us two things , the system uses a two digit code system and code 11 means that test passes.
Now , lets find out what is really happening. Take a jumper wire from the battery positive post and connect it to the terminal of the EEC relay that comes from the ign switch. You should hear the relay energize and also hear and feel the fuel pump relay energize when you provide a ground for the fuel pump relay coil.The ECM provides the ground for the fuel pump relay for 2 seconds when you first turn the key on. When you ground the ground terminal of the fuel pump relay coil you should hear the fuel pump run in the tank. All we are doing is providing direct paths for power and by passing the wiring to those relays.
If the computer gets no RPM signal from the dist the fuel relay will not say energized and spark will be absent. There is a pick-up coil in the dist that sends a signal to the ECM and that signal goes to the ign module which then controls the ground to the coil. The coil has a power terminal that gets its power from the EEC relay and the other coil terminal gets grounded when spark is to be produced. If you have 12 volts to the coil with the key on all that is needed now is the ground for the other side of the coil winding to induce the spark in the secondary winding of the coil. If you remove the coil wire from the center of the dist cap and place it 1/4 in away from a good ground you should get a spark out of that coil when you momentarily touch the terminal of the coil that would normally get a ground to create the spark. Boy, I hope I put this clearly enough that you can follow what I suggested. Sometimes a test light is better to use than a voltmeter because it puts more of a load on the connections and wiring than a voltmeter.
#16
06-09-2014, 08:41 PM
Aloha
Thanks for the tip on the test light. The engine still ,will not start. Now the engine shows spark at the plugs using a HEI. I also now have good fuel pressure and volume. With a screwdriver I can hear the injectors clicking, I haven't tested using a noid light, I will later today. I can now see how the bad connection for the EEC relay could have blown the 30 amp fuse, number 7 under the dash, and turned on and off the fuel pump relay. Now, after reading a post yesterday I'am starting to think the new plugs could be fouled from the rich gas mixture. I'am willing to run down to the parts store and buy new plugs and rent the noid test light. I can't seem to find if fouled plugs can be cleaned. Like to hear back from you guys and especially what you think of the fouled plug idea. By the way, will test and replace the MAP sensor as soon as this van moves. Can anyone give me an idea why I'am reading .9mv with the key off at pin 86 for the fuel pump relay. The reading for pin 86 for the EEC relay shows 0 volts with the key off. I have cleaned the fuse box several times. I guess the only thing to do is turn over the fuse box board and look for a short? Anyone seen this before?
Aloha
Jim
Thanks for the tip on the test light. The engine still ,will not start. Now the engine shows spark at the plugs using a HEI. I also now have good fuel pressure and volume. With a screwdriver I can hear the injectors clicking, I haven't tested using a noid light, I will later today. I can now see how the bad connection for the EEC relay could have blown the 30 amp fuse, number 7 under the dash, and turned on and off the fuel pump relay. Now, after reading a post yesterday I'am starting to think the new plugs could be fouled from the rich gas mixture. I'am willing to run down to the parts store and buy new plugs and rent the noid test light. I can't seem to find if fouled plugs can be cleaned. Like to hear back from you guys and especially what you think of the fouled plug idea. By the way, will test and replace the MAP sensor as soon as this van moves. Can anyone give me an idea why I'am reading .9mv with the key off at pin 86 for the fuel pump relay. The reading for pin 86 for the EEC relay shows 0 volts with the key off. I have cleaned the fuse box several times. I guess the only thing to do is turn over the fuse box board and look for a short? Anyone seen this before?
Aloha
Jim
#17
06-10-2014, 03:13 AM
If you have good spark now and fuel pressure of 35-45 lbs other things aside the engine should start. You can dry out spark plugs and reinstall them . What you could also do is while the plugs are out and the fuel pump fuse removed , crank the engine over a few times to clear the flooded condition from the cylinders then reinstall the dry plugs and fuel pump fuse and the engine should start. I wouldn't be too concerned with the minor voltage readings you are getting at this time since terminal 85 is ground and 86 picks the relay coil. Did you find any gas in the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail?
#18
06-10-2014, 12:00 PM
Good morning
Again thanks for the advice. I replaced the fuel regulator, it was preventing the engine from revving up. I removed the vaccum line and found no fuel. I put in new plugs, turned it over and got a backfire and the battery then died. Took it in two days ago, I guess they didn't do a load test. I took out the distributer a couple days ago to check the pick-up and forgot to mark it. My Chilton's manual really was not much help in resetting the distributer. Will recharge the battery this morning and reset the distributer. As soon as anything happens I will repost. I will preform the procedure to turn off the fuel pump and dry out the cylinders.
Aloha
Jim
Again thanks for the advice. I replaced the fuel regulator, it was preventing the engine from revving up. I removed the vaccum line and found no fuel. I put in new plugs, turned it over and got a backfire and the battery then died. Took it in two days ago, I guess they didn't do a load test. I took out the distributer a couple days ago to check the pick-up and forgot to mark it. My Chilton's manual really was not much help in resetting the distributer. Will recharge the battery this morning and reset the distributer. As soon as anything happens I will repost. I will preform the procedure to turn off the fuel pump and dry out the cylinders.
Aloha
Jim
#19
06-10-2014, 02:03 PM
If you are not sure how to install the dist so it will start, let us/me know and it is a little lengthy, but we can post the procedure for you. The reason it backfired is most likely the dist is not installed correctly . While you have the plugs out would be a good time to recheck. To confirm the #1 piston is at the top of it's travel (on compression stroke) and timing pointer at TDC the rotor should be pointing to the #1 plug wire on the dist cap. Is it?
#20
06-13-2014, 08:45 PM
Aloha Hanky
Back again. A hour ago my repost again vanished after tiny typing. I'am so sorry I didn't answer earlier, but, I was sicker than a dog and just started working on the timing today. I'am not sure, I followed the following procedure from the internet. Go to top of compression stroke, number 1, set timing at 10 degrees before top dead center and position the left side of the rotor approaching the number one spark distributer contact. I set the timing so the engine easily started and revved. The problem with the gas rich black smoke persists. After four start attempts the engine wouldn't re-start. Assuming the engine was flooded I took out the fuel pump relay to clear the air and instead the engine ran fine for about five seconds. I'am fairly convinced this was the cause for the previous no-starts after the engine was warmed-up. This was at the same time I blew the EEC fuse and again had a no-start situation. I must sound like a parts changer. For the black smoke issue I have replaced the EGR and EGR sensor, map sensor, coil, re-manufactured the EEC, wires, cap, rotor, plugs. I noticed today after disconnecting the battery and clearing the codes, the black smoke lessened. Tomorrow morning I'am going to drive the van ten miles for the computer to program. Maybe help? Hanky, my wife thinks you're a great person and says thank You very much. Will re-post tomorrow as soon as possible.
Sincerely
Jim
Back again. A hour ago my repost again vanished after tiny typing. I'am so sorry I didn't answer earlier, but, I was sicker than a dog and just started working on the timing today. I'am not sure, I followed the following procedure from the internet. Go to top of compression stroke, number 1, set timing at 10 degrees before top dead center and position the left side of the rotor approaching the number one spark distributer contact. I set the timing so the engine easily started and revved. The problem with the gas rich black smoke persists. After four start attempts the engine wouldn't re-start. Assuming the engine was flooded I took out the fuel pump relay to clear the air and instead the engine ran fine for about five seconds. I'am fairly convinced this was the cause for the previous no-starts after the engine was warmed-up. This was at the same time I blew the EEC fuse and again had a no-start situation. I must sound like a parts changer. For the black smoke issue I have replaced the EGR and EGR sensor, map sensor, coil, re-manufactured the EEC, wires, cap, rotor, plugs. I noticed today after disconnecting the battery and clearing the codes, the black smoke lessened. Tomorrow morning I'am going to drive the van ten miles for the computer to program. Maybe help? Hanky, my wife thinks you're a great person and says thank You very much. Will re-post tomorrow as soon as possible.
Sincerely
Jim