92 e250 5.8 where is the pcm power relay
#21
06-14-2014, 09:19 AM
As you know, the black smoke is the result of an overfueled engine. Some of the causes could be, defective fuel pressure regulator, excessive fuel pump pressure, obstructed intake, leaking injectors to name a few. I'm glad you at least got it running where you could take it out and drive it some.
Thank your wife for the kind words. I wonder why I can't get my wife to think the same thing. She won't even allow me to work on our wheelbarrow. I guess I'm lucky she even talks to me, I suffer from a hearing problem which many guys acquire after years of being married, just kidding ! Let us know how you make out, thanks!
Thank your wife for the kind words. I wonder why I can't get my wife to think the same thing. She won't even allow me to work on our wheelbarrow. I guess I'm lucky she even talks to me, I suffer from a hearing problem which many guys acquire after years of being married, just kidding ! Let us know how you make out, thanks!
#22
06-25-2014, 10:27 PM
Aloha Hanky
I,am so sorry, it's taken this long to get back to you. But, I didn't want to post again until I had something happy to say. We'll, I do. Talk your wife into letting you go to the car auctions and buy $ 50.00 cars, and then park them all over the city. My crazy hobby for to many years. Things have changed! I'am now like you, happily retired. I'am also now, happily married, one and years. The problem, I let the cat out of the bag and told my wife Trinidad, about twice having twenty-two cars, because, they were soo nice. Well anyway hanky, things have not entirely changed, unless, I can slowly convince her to get her hands greasy.
I'am still in a cloud of black smoke. Hanky please help me again. I was in the Air Force, and been bragging
to my wife that I was above being a "parts changer." We'll, to keep things in perspective, I have changed every part with the exception of the IAC and PIP pick-up, etc. This is my guess. Before I stripped the threads of the fuel rail Schafer valve, last week, the new fuel pump and three new filters were showing the correct fuel pressures,
but, taking up to 20 - 30 seconds to build pressure. Many years ago I spent a. Long time diagnosing a similar problem - correct fuel pressure, inadequate fuel volume. In the thread I indicated blowing the 30 amp fuse to the EEC relay, which in turn supplies power to pin 86 of the fuel pump relay, which then supplies the power to the fuel pump. With a new fuse, I found only about 6 volts going through the fuel pump power circuit. The voltage is now correct, using electronic contact cleaner and repeatilly pushing the EEC relay tabs into their slots. I have a fuel rail Schroeder connecting valve coming in Monday. I will then use the "snap-test"- raceing the accellerator and checking to see if the new fuel pump can keep up with the changing pressure demands. I have trolled the internet " black smoke, ford 5.8" and I think I have heard it all.
But you know Hanky, you won a convert with my wife. She doesn't know computers, but, I told her this- you will hear on the internet the "voice"of kind and caring people, the"vast" majority of the time. Your'e a winner - thanks, I will keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
I,am so sorry, it's taken this long to get back to you. But, I didn't want to post again until I had something happy to say. We'll, I do. Talk your wife into letting you go to the car auctions and buy $ 50.00 cars, and then park them all over the city. My crazy hobby for to many years. Things have changed! I'am now like you, happily retired. I'am also now, happily married, one and years. The problem, I let the cat out of the bag and told my wife Trinidad, about twice having twenty-two cars, because, they were soo nice. Well anyway hanky, things have not entirely changed, unless, I can slowly convince her to get her hands greasy.
I'am still in a cloud of black smoke. Hanky please help me again. I was in the Air Force, and been bragging
to my wife that I was above being a "parts changer." We'll, to keep things in perspective, I have changed every part with the exception of the IAC and PIP pick-up, etc. This is my guess. Before I stripped the threads of the fuel rail Schafer valve, last week, the new fuel pump and three new filters were showing the correct fuel pressures,
but, taking up to 20 - 30 seconds to build pressure. Many years ago I spent a. Long time diagnosing a similar problem - correct fuel pressure, inadequate fuel volume. In the thread I indicated blowing the 30 amp fuse to the EEC relay, which in turn supplies power to pin 86 of the fuel pump relay, which then supplies the power to the fuel pump. With a new fuse, I found only about 6 volts going through the fuel pump power circuit. The voltage is now correct, using electronic contact cleaner and repeatilly pushing the EEC relay tabs into their slots. I have a fuel rail Schroeder connecting valve coming in Monday. I will then use the "snap-test"- raceing the accellerator and checking to see if the new fuel pump can keep up with the changing pressure demands. I have trolled the internet " black smoke, ford 5.8" and I think I have heard it all.
But you know Hanky, you won a convert with my wife. She doesn't know computers, but, I told her this- you will hear on the internet the "voice"of kind and caring people, the"vast" majority of the time. Your'e a winner - thanks, I will keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
#23
06-26-2014, 09:43 AM
I am just one of many folks on this forum that are willing to share some experience and help out a Ford owner with a vehicle problem.
Have you been able to confirm there is not any obstruction in the air intake system?
I have to go back and recheck your previous posts, but I don't remember if you did anything to check the oxygen sensor. They can lie to the computer telling it the mixture is lean and the computer will be trying to richen the mixture resulting in an over rich fuel condition. Now were are getting into the "nitty gritty" and looking for something more than the usual causes.
Have you been able to confirm there is not any obstruction in the air intake system?
I have to go back and recheck your previous posts, but I don't remember if you did anything to check the oxygen sensor. They can lie to the computer telling it the mixture is lean and the computer will be trying to richen the mixture resulting in an over rich fuel condition. Now were are getting into the "nitty gritty" and looking for something more than the usual causes.
#24
06-28-2014, 08:09 PM
Hi Hanky
I think I'am on to the problem! I installed the new valve in the fuel rail and took key-on and engine on pressure readings. I found this: with key-on I had an initial pressure reading of zero lbs. With repeated key-on, the pressure will build up to under thirty lbs. With the engine running the reading is a little over thirty lbs. Taking the fuel regulator vacum line off the pressure will increase to forty lbs. The fuel pressure takes a dip when I rev. the engine and seems to take to long to recover. When I turn the engine off the fuel pressure drops fairly fast to twenty lbs. from there the pressure drop is more gradual.
I have replaced the in tank filters and the line filter and put in a Bosch fuel pump. I was pulling about six volts to the old and new fuel pump because the EEC contacts were corroded ,which resulted in the blowing of the 30 amp fuse in the fuel pump circuit. Do you think low voltage could cause the fuel pump to be damaged like this Is their a resistance reading for the pump. I was thinking, instead of blowing out all my fuel lines, if there is a fitting I can fit to the fuel disconnect lines to check fuel pressure to the fuel rail, in-line filter, etc. Thanks for your suggestions. I really checked for obstructions in the air intake. I was driven crazy once with a rag in a air intake. I have replaced the oxygen sensor.
I will keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
I think I'am on to the problem! I installed the new valve in the fuel rail and took key-on and engine on pressure readings. I found this: with key-on I had an initial pressure reading of zero lbs. With repeated key-on, the pressure will build up to under thirty lbs. With the engine running the reading is a little over thirty lbs. Taking the fuel regulator vacum line off the pressure will increase to forty lbs. The fuel pressure takes a dip when I rev. the engine and seems to take to long to recover. When I turn the engine off the fuel pressure drops fairly fast to twenty lbs. from there the pressure drop is more gradual.
I have replaced the in tank filters and the line filter and put in a Bosch fuel pump. I was pulling about six volts to the old and new fuel pump because the EEC contacts were corroded ,which resulted in the blowing of the 30 amp fuse in the fuel pump circuit. Do you think low voltage could cause the fuel pump to be damaged like this Is their a resistance reading for the pump. I was thinking, instead of blowing out all my fuel lines, if there is a fitting I can fit to the fuel disconnect lines to check fuel pressure to the fuel rail, in-line filter, etc. Thanks for your suggestions. I really checked for obstructions in the air intake. I was driven crazy once with a rag in a air intake. I have replaced the oxygen sensor.
I will keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
#26
06-28-2014, 09:13 PM
Aloha
I forgot to add when I put in the fuel pump I only replaced the filter attached to the pump which is inside the fuel pump assembly. There was a second filter attached to the outside of the fuel pump assembly. I was not told about this filter and did not replace it. Last week I replaced it, no difference. The outside filter for the assembly has an outside screen and a fiberous inner core. The inner core was badly broken up, could it be the filter was exposed to the air when taken outside of gas tank the first time and subsequently clogged up the new fuel pump intake filter?
Aloha
Jim
I forgot to add when I put in the fuel pump I only replaced the filter attached to the pump which is inside the fuel pump assembly. There was a second filter attached to the outside of the fuel pump assembly. I was not told about this filter and did not replace it. Last week I replaced it, no difference. The outside filter for the assembly has an outside screen and a fiberous inner core. The inner core was badly broken up, could it be the filter was exposed to the air when taken outside of gas tank the first time and subsequently clogged up the new fuel pump intake filter?
Aloha
Jim
#27
06-29-2014, 05:57 AM
Aloha
Jim, I don't think there is a filter problem. When you shut the engine down the fuel pressure in the rail should hold and not drop. The reasons it could drop are a leaking fuel pressure regulator , leaky injectors or a defective check valve in the pump.
Since we are dealing with an excessive fuel condition that would eliminate the fuel pump check valve. It leaves only the regulator and injector(s). Your spark plugs should provide a clue . If only one or two plugs are really black then it is the injector(s) for those cyls. What you can try is to clamp off the fuel return line to the tank from the regulator. It should hold the pressure when you turn the key off. If it drops , it confirms either leaking injector(s) or fuel press regulator. Since the pressure is in the normal range when running I would suspect leaking injector(s) ,but regulators have been known to be defective right out of the box. It's a pain to remove the fuel rail with the injectors, but Pressuring the rail with the injectors out still attached to the rail you will see the leaking injector(s) . You will become an expert after you get done with this one !! If you do decide to remove the injectors , the "O" rings on them must be replaced when reinstalling to prevent external fuel leaks. They can be lubricated with a little clean motor oil.
Aloha
hanky
Jim, I don't think there is a filter problem. When you shut the engine down the fuel pressure in the rail should hold and not drop. The reasons it could drop are a leaking fuel pressure regulator , leaky injectors or a defective check valve in the pump.
Since we are dealing with an excessive fuel condition that would eliminate the fuel pump check valve. It leaves only the regulator and injector(s). Your spark plugs should provide a clue . If only one or two plugs are really black then it is the injector(s) for those cyls. What you can try is to clamp off the fuel return line to the tank from the regulator. It should hold the pressure when you turn the key off. If it drops , it confirms either leaking injector(s) or fuel press regulator. Since the pressure is in the normal range when running I would suspect leaking injector(s) ,but regulators have been known to be defective right out of the box. It's a pain to remove the fuel rail with the injectors, but Pressuring the rail with the injectors out still attached to the rail you will see the leaking injector(s) . You will become an expert after you get done with this one !! If you do decide to remove the injectors , the "O" rings on them must be replaced when reinstalling to prevent external fuel leaks. They can be lubricated with a little clean motor oil.
Aloha
hanky
#28
06-29-2014, 10:32 PM
Thank You Hanky
I will start on this this path tomorrow. I would not have thought of clamping the return line. All your ideas are great. I'll check the plugs and the spray pattern from the injectors with the fuel rail removed and pressurized. I was ready to drop the tank. My wife was by my side the last time with a fire extinguisher. I'am not as risky no days.
I'am getting a steady 15 lbs. vacum. I removed the distributer and forgot to mark it. I thought I could set the timing with a vacum gauge,but, it didn't increase the vacum. I haven't looked for vacum leaks around the intake manifold with brake cleaner, so it's a good time to replace the upper intake gasket, which I see are famous for this problem.
Could this have happened. I bought the van from a company that kept it maintained and indoors. These vans are really nice. What happened was someone cut the three inch rubber between the intake fuel pipe and fuel tank. They used a hose to siphon off the gas. The company sold it to me because they couldn't get it to idle. They had left the tank exposed to condensation for over a year and I was able to get it runnable using water remover. Since then I have run two cans of Techron, didn't help. This is the question, do you think water could have damaged some of injectors? Would you clean most of them and replace some or order a set on-line. Some one is selling a injector cleaning machine on craigslist for two hundred dollars, good investment?
I'll try all these ideas tomorrow morning. Thanks a million for the help. I'll keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
I will start on this this path tomorrow. I would not have thought of clamping the return line. All your ideas are great. I'll check the plugs and the spray pattern from the injectors with the fuel rail removed and pressurized. I was ready to drop the tank. My wife was by my side the last time with a fire extinguisher. I'am not as risky no days.
I'am getting a steady 15 lbs. vacum. I removed the distributer and forgot to mark it. I thought I could set the timing with a vacum gauge,but, it didn't increase the vacum. I haven't looked for vacum leaks around the intake manifold with brake cleaner, so it's a good time to replace the upper intake gasket, which I see are famous for this problem.
Could this have happened. I bought the van from a company that kept it maintained and indoors. These vans are really nice. What happened was someone cut the three inch rubber between the intake fuel pipe and fuel tank. They used a hose to siphon off the gas. The company sold it to me because they couldn't get it to idle. They had left the tank exposed to condensation for over a year and I was able to get it runnable using water remover. Since then I have run two cans of Techron, didn't help. This is the question, do you think water could have damaged some of injectors? Would you clean most of them and replace some or order a set on-line. Some one is selling a injector cleaning machine on craigslist for two hundred dollars, good investment?
I'll try all these ideas tomorrow morning. Thanks a million for the help. I'll keep you posted.
Aloha
Jim
#29
06-29-2014, 11:56 PM
Hanky
I did some research and I'am sure you would agree to have the injectors professionally serviced first. I think there is someone here that can do this, I'll check tomorrow. I have used pressurized fuel injection cleaner at the fuel rail in the past, I think on GM cars. It's nice to see the engine even out. Is there a fitting and hose for ford, and is their a pressurized cleaner you would recommend? Would you try several cans, before taking out the injectors? I have listened to the injectors with my stethoscope and they sounded good.
Thanks
Jim
I did some research and I'am sure you would agree to have the injectors professionally serviced first. I think there is someone here that can do this, I'll check tomorrow. I have used pressurized fuel injection cleaner at the fuel rail in the past, I think on GM cars. It's nice to see the engine even out. Is there a fitting and hose for ford, and is their a pressurized cleaner you would recommend? Would you try several cans, before taking out the injectors? I have listened to the injectors with my stethoscope and they sounded good.
Thanks
Jim
#30
06-30-2014, 03:45 AM
Sometimes the things in a bottle help, but not always. The injectors are no doubt working, but they may not be closing off completely and leaking adding extra fuel.
The better thing to do is remove them and observe their operation under the same pressure as when working in the engine. They should not drip or leak at all when not energized. The problem with the fuel tank could have contributed to the problem. The better thing to consider is to replace them.
The better thing to do is remove them and observe their operation under the same pressure as when working in the engine. They should not drip or leak at all when not energized. The problem with the fuel tank could have contributed to the problem. The better thing to consider is to replace them.